Curse

ashes · Dec 27, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Hi guys..

I'm playing 2nd warrior in my guild, and im kinda having some problems finding the right build for it...

My leader req. is..

Be able to spike with the team.
Be able to kill a target alone.
Speed Boost. (Which is a big problem, because im addicted to rush, but he want me to use an energy speed boost, so im able to run around without adrenaline...)
Have selfheal/survivability

It's pretty tricky to find a bar that fills all the requirements. As said before, im addicted to rush - so i think that takin enraging charge instead of rush, will cause my death due to frenzy.. QQ

So what i want you to do is, post a good 2nd war build, that fills as many criterias as possible.

Thank You

Ash

TheOneMephisto · Dec 27, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Pretty much impossible to say without a teambuild. But in general, you should be able to just get by with a standard shock-axe, as in reality, you don't really need the self-heal just because you should be pretty much always splitting with the runner.

ashes · Dec 27, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

As far as i know we/I are/am not going to gank there NPC's but i gotta be able to run back to our base, and push out a possible enemy-ganker...

I thought maybe to run a W/A Shadow Axe - with or without selfheal... might be a good idea, because Dash allows me to spam-cancel stances at will.

Any other opinions?

TheOneMephisto · Dec 27, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

As far as i know we/I are/am not going to gank there NPC's but i gotta be able to run back to our base, and push out a possible enemy-ganker...

I thought maybe to run a W/A Shadow Axe - with or without selfheal... might be a good idea, because Dash allows me to spam-cancel stances at will.

Any other opinions?

Well if all you have to worry about is going back to base to push out gankt eams then a shock-axe is definitely okay, as you should be fresh from the stand running back so rush is easy to get charged and you don't need a self-heal so much as you'll be with your runner.

Floski · Dec 27, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Speed Boost. (Which is a big problem, because im addicted to rush, but he want me to use an energy speed boost, so im able to run around without adrenaline...)

I know what you mean. I use the rend touch axe bar which means I don't have any real speed boost besides rush. You might use the standard axe bar and replace the utility slot for enraging. Evisc, Bodyblow, dchop, frenzy, bulls, rush, enraging, sig. You can split off without a selfheal against npcs no problem. Unless you drop the sig or the dchop for a selfheal I cant see being able to meet every req that you listed. But Dchop and is soooo good, and so is ressig, and so is rend touch/shock. I just deal with not having a real speedboost because it's more useful than having one.

ashes · Dec 27, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well if all you have to worry about is going back to base to push out gankt eams then a shock-axe is definitely okay, as you should be fresh from the stand running back so rush is easy to get charged and you don't need a self-heal so much as you'll be with your runner.

/signed - just too bad i cant convince my leader about that... I absolutely LOVE rush ;D

And to Floski - Playing with 3 stances (frenzy,rush,enraging) is soo nice, and i told him (my guildleader) that, but hes cold answer was, and i translate "You can't always have what u want."

hmm *confused* - should i use my brain on finding a build that meet as many reqs as possible, or should i try to change hes' (leader) opinion?

For me playing with frenzy but without a low-recharge cancel-stance is suicide, mostly because im used to switch alot between stances.

Could a possible bar be like this (and i dont know how to make the fancy skill-icons on this forum, plz tell me ^^)

Eviscerate, Executioners, dChop, Enraging Charge, Frenzy, Rush, Heal sig, Res sig?

I got the deep wound, i got the acceptable dmg output, got interrupt, energy speed boost, and my loves rush - and i actually also got the selfheal he req.

Only think i need is, ench removal (rending touch) - but cant really fit it all in there.

Ty so far - keep the good advises going

Ash

TheOneMephisto · Dec 27, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

ould a possible bar be like this (and i dont know how to make the fancy skill-icons on this forum, plz tell me ^^)

Eviscerate, Executioners, dChop, Enraging Charge, Frenzy, Rush, Heal sig, Res sig?

I got the deep wound, i got the acceptable dmg output, got interrupt, energy speed boost, and my loves rush - and i actually also got the selfheal he req.

No bull's strike means that it's a bad warrior bar. Seriously, I would probably screw him or tell him to look on observer mode and just run something like:

evis, exec/body blow, dchop/enraging, frenzy, rush, bull's, shock, res sig.

Tell him that an energy-based speedboost isn't that important unless you want to play run-around-way, that you don't need a self-heal because any time you're defending the base you're going to be with the runner or you'll lose either way, and that shock/dchop are absolutely vital tools on splits and can make or break a game easily (especially if you can quarterknock bull's->shock->dchop).

ashes · Dec 27, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Hehe u got a point there

Hmm im standing between:

So basicly just Shock axe, with dChop/Enraging as the "jokerspot" ... hmm

What about changing Shock for Rending Touch (keep in mind im 2nd war, so i guess flagrunners is also my business)

Could be: Evis, Bodyblow, dChop, Bull's, Frenzy, Rush, Rending Touch, Ressig.
or:
Could be: Evis, Bodyblow, Shock, Bull's, Enraging, Frenzy, Rush, Ressig.

Bar one got Rending Touch, which IMO may prove useful in anti-gank/split and when facing flagrunner. Got dChop because the lack of shock

Bar two got is triple stances Shocker. Got shock as "interrupt" as well as additional KD. Enraging charge allow the playing to built up adrenaline faster, and is a energy required speed boost.

Personally i prefer the first bar, what u think?

Another question is about Exec vs Bodyblow... I took bodyblow this time, because with 13 Str the dmg is the same as Exec, and it only cost 7 adrenaline. And it also give u the opportunity for an additional deep wound, if ur runner (fx Rt/E) carries Shell Shock

Ty for all ur help (so far

), keep em coming ;D

Ash

TheOneMephisto · Dec 27, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

Hehe u got a point there

Hmm im standing between:

So basicly just Shock axe, with dChop/Enraging as the "jokerspot" ... hmm

What about changing Shock for Rending Touch (keep in mind im 2nd war, so i guess flagrunners is also my business)

Could be: Evis, Bodyblow, dChop, Bull's, Frenzy, Rush, Rending Touch, Ressig.
or:
Could be: Evis, Bodyblow, Shock, Bull's, Enraging, Frenzy, Rush, Ressig.

Bar one got Rending Touch, which IMO may prove useful in anti-gank/split and when facing flagrunner. Got dChop because the lack of shock

Bar two got is triple stances Shocker. Got shock as "interrupt" as well as additional KD. Enraging charge allow the playing to built up adrenaline faster, and is a energy required speed boost.

Personally i prefer the first bar, what u think?

Another question is about Exec vs Bodyblow... I took bodyblow this time, because with 13 Str the dmg is the same as Exec, and it only cost 7 adrenaline. And it also give u the opportunity for an additional deep wound, if ur runner (fx Rt/E) carries Shell Shock

Ty for all ur help (so far

), keep em coming ;D

Ash

It doesn't really make a difference if you're the "second war" or not, you both are still going to be taking the same responsibilities depending on who is able to do it.

But I've always preferred shock over pretty much everything, especially on an axe bar. 6 sec KDs kill things more than almost any other skill you put in there will. And I can't really see why rending is so attractive, as if your the primary splitting warrior rending is mostly bad on splits (most runners are rt/x), and definitely not nearly as good as shock.

And for dchop or enraging, I prefer dchop, but I guess you could go enraging if you really wanted to. Dchop is just no nice, and the disable is scary if you can pull it off.

ashes · Dec 27, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Ur right, i better just change my guildleaders mind, and run a regular shock axe

/bow

Ash

Floski · Dec 27, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Rending is good for:

Stripping conjures
Stripping attunes on bsurges so they cant spam it.
Splitting.

If you play against a gimmick build you will find often they split a monk and a rit or something back. Unless you bring your mesmer, rend touch is extremely useful. It's also good at the stand when your shatter is on recharge. Watch for aura of stab which is becoming way too popular these days, strip that fast so you're not gimped on damage. Let's say a flagger is running in for a clutch cap. You might want to coordinate shatter and rends on him so you can kd chain him vs. aura of stab. Rend is a nice quick recharge fast cast low cost strip.

Shock, I dunno. I used to play it, but I switched to rend and never looked back. My guild leader and I agree that having strips on demand without needing the mesmer is pretty nice. But with aura of stab, I might need to be able to kd different targets more often without needing bulls. Who knows.

I would also heavily recommend bringing bodyblow over evisc if you're specced 13 into str. It gives you a free deepwound on any paragon, does only 2 less than exec, but charges 1 strike faster.

And yeah, you need bulls.

Dominator1370 · Dec 27, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I'd much rather have Shock, but if you had to, you could go W/A to take Dash in place of Rush and switch Shock for Disrupting Dagger.

Shock >> Disrupting Dagger IMO, but if your guild leader is going to be an ass about the running stance thing, it's an option. If you're doing that, though, you might want to look at Radiant insignias. Dash is going to take a good bit of energy, which is more or less why Rush is 1337.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 27, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floski

If you play against a gimmick build you will find often they split a monk and a rit or something back. Unless you bring your mesmer, rend touch is extremely useful. It's also good at the stand when your shatter is on recharge. Watch for aura of stab which is becoming way too popular these days, strip that fast so you're not gimped on damage. Let's say a flagger is running in for a clutch cap. You might want to coordinate shatter and rends on him so you can kd chain him vs. aura of stab. Rend is a nice quick recharge fast cast low cost strip.

Rend is pretty good, but most team's split options are a runner (usually a rit), ranger, and warrior, in which case rend isn't really useful at all since rits don't run enchants.

ashes · Dec 27, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Yup but it rocks when fighting a E/Mo runner ^^

Ash

ashes · Dec 27, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floski

Rending is good for:

Stripping conjures
Stripping attunes on bsurges so they cant spam it.
Splitting.

If you play against a gimmick build you will find often they split a monk and a rit or something back. Unless you bring your mesmer, rend touch is extremely useful. It's also good at the stand when your shatter is on recharge. Watch for aura of stab which is becoming way too popular these days, strip that fast so you're not gimped on damage. Let's say a flagger is running in for a clutch cap. You might want to coordinate shatter and rends on him so you can kd chain him vs. aura of stab. Rend is a nice quick recharge fast cast low cost strip.

Shock, I dunno. I used to play it, but I switched to rend and never looked back. My guild leader and I agree that having strips on demand without needing the mesmer is pretty nice. But with aura of stab, I might need to be able to kd different targets more often without needing bulls. Who knows.

I would also heavily recommend bringing bodyblow over evisc if you're specced 13 into str. It gives you a free deepwound on any paragon, does only 2 less than exec, but charges 1 strike faster.

And yeah, you need bulls.

With 14 Axe Mastery and 13 Str Exec deals +38dmg and bodyblow deals +38 ;D so its the same

And i havnt really thought about the whole bodyblow/paragon thingy, its quite nice.

About insignias... im running stonefist, and 4 x radiant - but i might wanna swap them for survivors but i dont know really (cant afford 2 armor sets ;D PvP'ing on PvE chars ftw)

zling · Dec 27, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

to solve your problem I'd say go W/D.
Eviscerate, Executioner's, Agonizing/Distracting, Bull's Strike, Frenzy, Pious Haste/Harrier's Haste, Rending Touch, Res Sig
if you insist on a self heal than drop the Agonizing/Distracting for Heal Sig/Lion's Comfrot/Natural Healing

Floski · Dec 28, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

With 14 Axe Mastery and 13 Str Exec deals +38dmg and bodyblow deals +38 ;D so its the same

And i havnt really thought about the whole bodyblow/paragon thingy, its quite nice.

About insignias... im running stonefist, and 4 x radiant - but i might wanna swap them for survivors but i dont know really (cant afford 2 armor sets ;D PvP'ing on PvE chars ftw)

Do you really need those radiants? I never really have energy problems with 20 max, and I bulls on recharge, frenzy tons, use rend liberally. You just need to know when to switch to zealous.

And trust me, 13 str = bodyblow@+36 I'm looking at it right now.

Greedy Gus · Dec 28, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Strong use of knockdowns and stancing are the most important aspects of warriors right now (have been for awhile). Bulls is much more effective when you're running faster than your target, which is why energy-based run buffs don't have great synergy with bulls strike (expensive). This is why rush is so amazing on a strong flagstand warrior, in addition to being a faster/cheaper stance cancel. You rush to get crits, bounce between targets, and set up your best bstrikes, then frenzy to bust adren and rush to cancel back out if needed.

Based on this reasoning, at the most basic level there are really only two effective, skill efficient warrior templates atm: rush + bulls strike guys, and bull's charge bars.

Many people think of bulls charge as bar compression (run buff + KD), but it isn't really. Without an elite attack skill, you really always want to be running 3 non-elite attack skills instead of 2. The key difference, though, is now you've got an energy-based run buff that doesn't have bad synergy with your KD.

There is one more point to touch on for bulls charge: you really want another cancel stance, because you need to frenzy and bust adren after your KD. This isn't really an issue for a splittable guy though, because right now you already want a self-defense skill (healsig is weak alone).

Having an energy-based speed boost is actually non-trivial for a warrior who will split away from the main battle, though you may not think so based on the responses here & watching obs mode. It just offers a lot more movement flexibility/freedom, and is especially important if you plan on offensively splitting/skirmishing. The issue is that based on the metagame, popular opinion, and the current top player-base that people emulate, almost everyone is just satisfied running 2 strong flagstand [rush + bulls strike] wars, and really only splitting them if their ranger has someone criplocked already or if the situation is relatively safe (fighting with friendly NPCs, joining a previous 2v2 / 3v3). This has shown to work just fine, but your guild leader may want you on the more flexible role based on his request.

So recently I've felt like running a splittable warrior bar, with all of your guild leader's requirements and then some. I also want KD power (splitting a warrior really misses the point if you don't have any movement control), and an interrupt (makes killing NPCs much faster & easier, and is just good to have in skirmish play). The issue is that the most flexible bars filling these requirements are just going to need 8 skill slots. You can run a res sig instead of an interrupt if you really have to, but your split effectiveness is worse.

Sever
Gash
Final / Sun & Moon
Frenzy
Bulls Charge {E}
Disciplined Stance / Pious Concentration
Healing Sig
Savage Slash / Disarm / Res sig

If you really want to take it to an extreme, you can change to axe and run dismember/exe/agonizing, and then take out the interrupt for rending touch. This is IMO the ultimate splittable toolbox war bar, and I ran it before (when SoR/SoD was everywhere), but the damage really sucks so it's just weak at the stand. Right now though, you really don't need rending touch, so the sword bar is much stronger. If you don't like or aren't good at running sword, I'd say your best bet is to just run a triple stance (enraging charge) axe or hammer bar and making due without self defense.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 28, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I don't consider Bull's Charge a viable bar, and haven't for a while. The skill doesn't really let you make any plays you couldn't make with Bull's Strike, and as you touched on, it's not much good as a cancel stance either. You end up spending your elite on a skill that doesn't work any better than Bull's Strike + Rush, and all you get out of it is an energy speed buff.

Though I'm partial to D-chop in most builds, I sometimes run Enraging on an axe guy if I expect to be splitting a lot and we have significant midline shutdown at the stand. It's one of those rare skills that fufills a lot of functions successfully, without being too good in any one area.

At the stand, you can do some decent adrenal-charging tricks with it to quickly spike two guys in a row. You get situations where you spike someone, hit Enraging, and are able to combo the Infuser with another adrenal pool before he can get a heal. It's also a second cancel stance which synergizes with Rush in such a way that one or the other will always be up, allowing you to have a combo blocked without making yourself a spike risk.

The skill really shines in skirmish, both as an energy speed buff for moving around the map, and once the battle actually starts. Most skirmishes don't last more than 2-3 pools of adrenaline, and getting four strikes 'for free' is a significant advantage.

Despite all this, I still end up taking D-chop most of the time, but Enraging is by no means a bad choice, especially if you're planning to win at the stand with 321spike.

Greedy Gus · Dec 28, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I don't consider Bull's Charge a viable bar, and haven't for a while. The skill doesn't really let you make any plays you couldn't make with Bull's Strike, and as you touched on, it's not much good as a cancel stance either. You end up spending your elite on a skill that doesn't work any better than Bull's Strike + Rush, and all you get out of it is an energy speed buff.

Although an energy-based run buff is all you get, my position is that that is a non-trivial difference, and I imagine that is the main point of contention I'd have with most people here. It's the core stancing/KD setup that the bar is built upon, and the most efficient / best one for a flexible splittable template. And indeed, it's a sacrifice, because bull's strike and rush are simply the best skills for what they do.

What is important to clarify is that the popular (run almost exclusively) rush-based warriors are not flexible splittable templates. Triple stance bars take up too much space and don't allow for self-survivability. Although any warrior can split away from monks with some level of effect, they are restricted in usefulness to more specific situations.

Whether or not one style is simply better than the other is certainly an interesting subject for another thread, but at least recognize that there is still a choice between a flexible splittable warrior template and a strong flagstand warrior (that can split effectively when the situation can be favorably controlled).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Despite all this, I still end up taking D-chop most of the time, but Enraging is by no means a bad choice, especially if you're planning to win at the stand with 321spike.

The standard triple-stance axe bar is: evis/BB/d-chop/bulls/frenzy/rush/enraging/d-pact, with 14/14 axe/str. Are you talking about dchop vs. enraging on a shock bar?